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Interview: Experts discuss the 20-year history of the Macintosh computer January 20, 2004 NEAL CONAN, host: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Super Bowl XVIII is little remembered. The Los Angeles Raiders crushed the Washington Redskins. Few will recall the lopsided score. But there was a revolutionary TV commercial. (Soundbite of TV commercial) Announcer: On January 24th, Apple Computer will introduce Macintosh, and you'll see why 1984 won't be like "1984." CONAN: The product itself couldn't have been more different than director Ridley Scott's dark Orwellian ad. The Mac was first and foremost a friendly computer. It's revolutionary combination of easy-to-use graphics, a mouse and a voice gave what used to be a forbidding box a personality. Computers stopped being them that day and started being us. Later in the program, an art curator joins us for a brief history of the many uses and meanings of the simplest and most duplicitous of human expressions: the smile. But first, the 20-year history of the personal computer that was made for the rest of us. What was your first computer and how did it change your life? If you're among the devoted followers of Mac, what trials do you face in a PC-dominated world? Our number here in Washington is (800) 989-8255; that's (800) 989-TALK. The e-mail address is totn@npr.org. For more on the Mac's 20-year anniversary and to see the famous commercial we mentioned, you can go to the TALK OF THE NATION page at npr.org. If you're having a case of deja vu, yes, they did redo that commercial for the iPod, but that was the original spot. Joining us now from his home in Pacifica, California, is Jef Raskin. Jef is known as the father of the Macintosh. Welcome to TALK OF THE NATION. Mr. JEF RASKIN (Father of the Macintosh): Thank you, Neal. CONAN: Remind us. Before the Mac, what were computers like? Mr. RASKIN: Well, you used something like the most sophisticated ones that you could buy, you used something called DOS, a disk operating system. You had to know and memorize a whole bunch of commands that you typed in. They were very obscure, and I certainly can't remember them. CONAN: It was almost like another language. Mr. RASKIN: It was another language, and it was a very alien language. In fact, I found them difficult to use myself, even though I have a graduate degree in computer science. CONAN: So what was your goal when you set out to make the Mac? Mr. RASKIN: Well, first of all, I wanted something that was designed from the human interface out. First of all, I wanted to look at what people needed and how people worked and make it work that way. Another thing I wanted was to make the machine graphic--that is, machines before then were what they call character-generated machines. They would put words on the screen and could do very little else. And actually back from 1967, I had already started writing about computers that were going to be all graphic, just everything's pictures. Text is pictures. You could do things in different fonts and different languages. It didn't matter whether it was Hebrew or Japanese or Arabic. You could do anything. And that was my vision. And here it is 25 years after I started the Mac project, and I have a Macintosh. Yea. CONAN: You still run a Mac? Mr. RASKIN: Oh, yeah. CONAN: Now was there a moment during development when somebody says, `Yeah, yeah, we'll call them icons; that's what we'll call them'? Mr. RASKIN: No. Icon is an old word, and that... CONAN: It's a Greek word, but... Mr. RASKIN: It's a Greek word and its use for computers came from Xerox Park, which is Palo Alto Research Center of the Xerox Corporation. CONAN: That's interesting. Now as you were making this product, now, of course, you worked for Apple, so you're going to figure it's going to be named for some kind of an apple or another. But why the McIntosh? Why not a Jonathan or a Winesap? Mr. RASKIN: Well, actually, the custom inside Apple at that time was getting to be naming computers after female names like Lisa. CONAN: That was a famous precursor, yeah. Mr. RASKIN: Right. And I thought that was sort of a sexist thing. And I decided to name my computer after my favorite kind of apple, which happens to be McIntosh apple. And also I thought it would--I thought the name had a nice ring to it. Mac. CONAN: It's the first... Mr. RASKIN: Steve Jobs tried to change it to Bicycle, but Mac stuck. CONAN: So it became the first computer with a nickname. Mr. RASKIN: (Chuckling) Yeah. CONAN: Now looking back on this project--again, you started it 25 years ago. Well, first of all, what was the first thing you did when you started? Mr. RASKIN: Well, I started out by starting to write something called "The Book of Macintosh," which turned out to be a 400-page-long document that said what we were doing, why we needed it, what it would be used for. In fact, that's perhaps one of the things I'm proudest of, is that in the very third document back in 1979, I said that Apple should start up something that now looks just like the Internet, and people can--can I give the URL of the document? CONAN: Sure. Mr. RASKIN: OK. If people go to jefraskin.com--and Jef is with one F, by the way--and they look for this article, "Holes in the Histories," that tells something of the history. And also the appendix to that is what I predicted computers were going to be used for. And I think people will find it reads just like what's happening today. CONAN: Well, looking back on the project after all this time, did you ever imagine that your design would change the world? Mr. RASKIN: Not as much as it has. CONAN: (Laughter) Mr. RASKIN: And I'm still amazed every day when I sit down at this machine and I realize I'm using something that I started a long time ago. I mean, many thousands of other people have made contributions--you could hardly begin to list the names of the people who--in fact, it wouldn't have been here without Brian Howard, Bill Atkinson, without Steve Jobs, without zillions of others who've made applications for it. But it still has that basic same feel that I wanted. CONAN: Congratulations. Mr. RASKIN: Well, thank you. CONAN: Jef Raskin was the original Macintosh project leader. He's also the author of multiple books, including "The Humane Interference." And he spoke with us from his home in Pacifica, California. Joining us now from our bureau in New York is Steven Levy, senior editor and technology columnist for Newsweek magazine. He's also the author of "Insanely Great: The Life and Times of Macintosh, the Computer That Changed Everything." And welcome to TALK OF THE NATION. Mr. STEVEN LEVY (Author, "The Life and Times of Macintosh, the Computer That Changed Everything"): Thanks. CONAN: Now, Steven Levy, in the minds of a lot of people, Steve Jobs, the CEO of Apple, and the Mac are directly intertwined, as obviously we heard from Jef Raskin. He was the person who actually started the project. So when did Jobs step into the project? Mr. LEVY: Well, as Jef said, he started the project about five years before the computer actually saw the light of day. And somewhere along the line, you know, probably in the very early 1980s, Steve Jobs, who was working on the aforementioned Lisa project, which was a high-end computer that wound up costing $10,000, was sort of driven out of that project, even though he was co-founder of the company. And he was looking around for another project that would excite him. And he came across Jef's Macintosh project and decided that he would take that over. And after a short period, it was really determined that Jef and Steve were oil and water. And, you know, it was Jef whose plug got pulled, and Steve took it over from then on. CONAN: Interesting turn of phrase. It was determined--the passive tense. Always extremely useful in these situations. Mr. LEVY: Well, actually, when I first did reporting on this, I did a story for Rolling Stone, which, you know, came out along with the introduction of the computer. And I got in before, you know, its announcement, into the top-secret World Macintosh Headquarters in Cupertino. And I did find Jef, even though Apple wasn't too eager to introduce me to him at that point. And Jef familiarized me with "The Book of Macintosh," and he really didn't use the passive voice when he described the situation either. He said, `Steve basically booted me and it became Steve's project.' And, indeed, it did become Steve's project. Jef really got it going; he had the great concept to begin with. But Steve was the person who, you know, ran the team for the last couple years and really took it home and made a lot of changes to Jef's vision, you know, both of which still survive today. CONAN: Our number, if you'd like to join our conversation, is (800) 989-8255; (800) 989-TALK. Our e-mail address is totn@npr.org. And let's begin with Keith, who's with us from Indianapolis. KEITH (Caller): Yes. Hi. How are you? CONAN: Very well, thanks. KEITH: One thing that I just want to say for the benefit of all the other people out there who are not Macintosh or PC users is there were quite a few other machines that were very viable during those times as well. In fact, many of the Apple products were built on things like the 6502 microprocessor, whose patent was by Commodore Business Machines. And lest we forget, the Commodore had some very, very successful machines, selling over a million units a month at the time that the Apple Macintosh came out. And there's a lot of people out there that--unfortunately, the company never survived, like Apple did, but there's a large base and a huge following of people out there who sure loved a lot of products other than PCs or Macs. CONAN: Did you have a relationship with this particular product line? KEITH: I was the Omega product manager when the Omega product line came out. So, yes, I managed the introduction, the development of the products for the Commodore Business Machines under the Omega product logo. CONAN: And what did you think when you saw that first Mac 20 years ago? KEITH: Well, at the time, you know, Commodore was, you know, already doing color, they were already doing, you know, resolutions that were in excess of what the PCs and the Macs were doing. And because Commodore was never a good marketing company, unlike Apple, which was a fantastic marketing company, I think a lot of the people always felt a little let down because they felt that they had better products, better technology, they were ahead of the curve technologically, but never could quite get their voice made known and become big enough and well-established enough to survive. CONAN: Well, Steven Levy, given competition like that, what was it that made the Apple company and Macintosh stick out? Mr. LEVY: Well, your caller's right to say that, you know, Apple and Steve in particular had this great marketing flair. But I think there was something more than that. There really was a breakthrough aspect to the Macintosh itself. And anyone who really came across this computer in the sea of other, you know, computers, some of which were more charming than others but none of them had this, you know, really breakaway personality and, you know, conviviality that Macintosh had. It was something different. It was shaped differently, you know, anyone who's seen an original Macintosh can understand, you know, the squarish way it stood up with a vertical orientation and that little screen looking out there, almost like the thing was smiling at you. And instead of this weird little carrot in phosphorescent characters asking you to type in this incantation, there was a little smiley face. `Hello. Here I am. Why don't you use me?' And that sort of conviviality and friendliness just went through to everything you did on the computer. And it was actually pretty hard to write software for the Macintosh because they made it so the software developers had to jump through hurdles to make it easy for the users to, you know, do what they wanted to do on the computer. So even though originally there wasn't very much software for it, all the software worked together, and it was easy to use and it worked on the same general principles. CONAN: Well, Keith, here's another rival to both Macs and PCs writing in on e-mail, Chris Shaw in Portland, Oregon. `My first computer was an IMSI (pronounced I-M-S-I), which had the first color graphic system, the Cromemco Dazzler in 1977.' Mr. LEVY: IMSI (pronounced Im-sigh) they were called. CONAN: IMSI, excuse me. Keith, thanks very much for the call. KEITH: Thank you. CONAN: Let's go with Rob. And Rob's from Oakland, California. ROB (Caller): How you doing? CONAN: OK. ROB: I became familiar with Mac because I was a Apple II user when I was a nerd in junior high school and ate my lunch in the computer room and wrote little programs. But the computer that really changed my life was the first PowerBook. I got a PowerBook when I was in college. I started taking notes on it in class. I was a journalism student. I started taking notes on it during interviews. And I am now a film critic and I still use my PowerBook. I actually have one of the black ones from 2000, and I use it literally in the movie theater. I have it on my lap, I have the screen turned all the way down so that it doesn't bother anybody, and I take my notes in movies on it, and then put that document side-by-side with the review that I'm writing so I can go through my notes and write my review. CONAN: Now you cheated. ROB: I literally could not live without my PowerBook. CONAN: No, but you cheated. You took touch typing. That's not fair. ROB: Well, I can read them. See, my handwriting is atrocious, so writing in the dark was even worse. CONAN: (Laughter) ROB: I would not be doing what I'm doing today if it wasn't for the PowerBook. CONAN: Well, an unsolicited testimonial there from Rob in Oakland, California. Thanks very much for the call, Rob. ROB: Mm-hmm. CONAN: When we come back from a short break, more on the Mac's maturation and influence on the computer industry. Also, a look at the Mac from a PC fan. We're taking your calls, of course. Our number is (800) 989-8255; that's (800) 989-TALK. Or you can send us e-mail from a Mac or a PC. Even if you have a Commodore, that's all right. The address is totn@npr.org. We'll be back talking more with Steve Levy of Newsweek magazine. I'm Neal Conan. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. (Soundbite of music) CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. This week marks the 20th anniversary of the debut of the Macintosh computer. We want to hear from you. What was your first computer? How did it change your world? Our number is (800) 989-8255; that's (800) 989-TALK. And our e-mail address is totn@npr.org. And with us is Steven Levy, senior editor and technology columnist for Newsweek magazine. And let's get another caller on the air. This is Charlie, and Charlie's with us from Scottsdale, Arizona. CHARLIE (Caller): Good afternoon. CONAN: Afternoon. CHARLIE: I worked for a newspaper in Arizona back in the mid-'80s, and we had a computer that would do nothing but make newspaper. It was mounted in a 19-inch rack. It had its own air conditioner. You had to boot it with punch-paper tape. CONAN: Mm-hmm. CHARLIE: One Friday we walked in and the room was empty, and there was a Mac sitting on each desk. And the editor said, `I don't know what they've done to us, but we've got to put out Monday's paper on these things.' CONAN: (Laughter) CHARLIE: And we did. CONAN: Well, I think all of us of a certain age, Charlie, can remember that day or a variation of it. CHARLIE: Well, it took us a week to figure out that the typeface New York was only intended for screen display. Well, we knew it looked terrible in the paper. It took a week to find out that we had fonts on the computer. But... CONAN: (Laughter) CHARLIE: ...I've been a Mac user, a Mac consultant, and run a Mac repair and tutoring service. CONAN: Now being in the news business, Charlie, myself, one of the things that computers really changed when they arrived in the newsroom was, in the past, you, I'm sure, had the AP and UPI tickers in your office, suitably baffled to prevent their 19th-century technology from deafening everybody. But they rattled away, and a copy of that wire story--that was a valuable commodity. There were carbons, of course, but there were only, what, four or five or maybe six copies of that wire story in the whole newsroom. CHARLIE: That's right. CONAN: And when computers arrived, those news stories, A: started clearing immediately instead of having to cue up and wait for the 65 characters a minute. And then they were up immediately on a computer screen. Everybody could see it. CHARLIE: That's right. They were. And it was quite amazing, you know, how quickly we made the adjustment. One thing that you have to remember is that those Macs, which were one of the earliest ones, did not have an internal hard drive. And you had to run the Microsoft Word and the operating system from a 800K floppy disk. And so they were maddeningly slow at times. Mr. LEVY: Yeah. You could break your wrist swapping those disks out. CHARLIE: We want a... Mr. LEVY: But your caller, you know, has a great point there. And you know, before the Macintosh, what you got on a screen of a computer looked nothing like what a published book might look like. And the Macintosh not only started the whole field of desktop publishing, but it brought something really that you could only do with professional tools out to the mainstream. I was a writer for magazines, and I always went through this process of, you know, just waiting to see my work in print because you could put real italics instead of underlining things, you know, like on the dot-matrix printer, you know, or a typewriter even when it came out. But with a Macintosh, they started the expression `what you see is what you get,' and you were able to just do italics with just a little click of a mouse. And all of a sudden, you were a professional; you had the same tools that the typesetters had in the big New York publishing houses. CONAN: Charlie, thanks very much. CHARLIE: You're very welcome. Great show. CONAN: Thank you. Since the launch of the Macintosh, a war has been fought in the trenches of the personal computer world between the PC and the Mac. Users have debated which machine is easiest to use, which offers better support, which system links up easier with accessories and so on. Well, in terms of which you prefer to buy, the marketplace has decided that. It's the PC, though Macintosh continues to hang on. Joining us now by phone from his office in New York is Lance Ulanoff, executive editor and columnist for PCMag.com. And welcome to TALK OF THE NATION. Mr. LANCE ULANOFF (PCMag.com): Hi there. CONAN: Now I understand you're a PC user. So what makes the PC a superior machine? Mr. ULANOFF: Well, yes, I am a PC user and I write about PCs. Well, first of all, using the PC, you're pretty much assured that you're not going to be second guest at the dinner table. CONAN: Ah-hah. Mr. ULANOFF: The Mac has about 25 million users and the PC or Wintel platform and sometimes Win and AMD platform has hundreds of millions of users. So the pure power of the marketplace means that when you buy a PC, you can be assured that people are constantly making software for it, making peripherals for it that work for it first. The Macintosh is always sort of the second one to the table, and that's simply because of numbers. CONAN: You could imagine that there are game companies that say, hey, we're finished. Oh, my gosh, we've got to do that Mac version! Mr. ULANOFF: Yeah. And, you know, I'm sure that's incredibly frustrating for the Mac audience, that, you know, they're constantly waiting for things, like, for example, a very important piece of software, the latest version of Microsoft Office. You know, there was a period of time where we weren't even certain if Microsoft was going to continue to make the Office suite for the Macintosh. They're committed to doing it, but they're committed to doing it in their own good time. And so you have to wait. And anything that you see that you're lusting after on the software world, on the PC side, as a Mac user you will generally have to wait, with the exception, of course, of graphics and desktop publishing applications. And as you guys have been talking about, there's a long and great history in that area. I, in fact, was a Mac user probably roughly 18 years ago. And I started with desktop publishing. And that legacy has never gone away. Of course, that does narrow your focus quite a bit. The PC is used for everything under the sun. And it is a general business tool that many, many people buy because they know that it's a utilitarian device. They don't have to think about it. They buy the box, they get the software, and they do what they want with it. CONAN: Well, Steven Levy, isn't that the main point about the Mac all along? It was--for the rest of us, you didn't have to be a geek to use it. Mr. LEVY: That's right. You know, actually, I doubt that Lance had an iPod before Mac users did. There are a number of things that you can do first with the Macintosh. And just a couple weeks ago the folks from Microsoft in the Macintosh business unit showed me their new version of Microsoft Office, and they were pointing proudly to the Mac-first features that were going to be on there. But Lance is right. There's a lot more software. And playing it safe is the PC way. It's not really a decision for a lot of people to make with their heads. It's a decision to make with their hearts to get a Macintosh. CONAN: Here's an e-mail we got from John Rivet in Milwaukee. `Macs will never overtake PCs ever until Apple allows more second-party hardware manufacturers to make devices such as CD and hard drives for use in their machines. The joy of owning a PC is the ability to swap and replace parts as they're needed without being gouged into buying products made exclusively by Apple.' Does he have a case there, Lance? Mr. ULANOFF: Well, you know what? He's right, except that would ruin what Apple is. And Apple is a closed environment that creates some of the most beautiful industrial designs we've ever seen. That's only possible if you control everything. But, of course, that makes these devices much more expensive. And also you don't have the ease of opening them up and throwing in new parts that are made by any manufacturer in the world. I still remember being a Mac user many years ago when we decided to upgrade all of our Mac SEs, all of their memory. And in walked a technician, 'cause I couldn't open it and I didn't know why I couldn't open it 'cause I couldn't tell what was going on--he walked in with a screwdriver that was literally a foot long... CONAN: (Laughter) Mr. ULANOFF: ...with a little Phillips head at the end, and shoved it in there and unscrewed it and open it. I was stunned. I wanted that screwdriver. But I thought, well, how odd, you can't even open it with normal tools. And, you know, with the exception of the G4 and G5, which are very standard-looking desktops, the iMac is another similar case where no one's going to open that thing up, but it's gorgeous to look at. CONAN: I know, Steve Levy, you had another analogy, an automotive one. Mr. LEVY: Well, that's right. It's often compared Macs to saying you're driving a BMW or a Porsche as, you know, opposed to a K-car with the competition. CONAN: OK. Mr. ULANOFF: I called it a Jaguar, you know. Runs beautiful, it's gorgeous, and then you discover it has 12 cylinders. You know, how do I deal with that? Who do I have to go to to have that fixed? Mr. LEVY: I actually do have to say, though, you know, the Macintoshes have gone a long way in terms of compatibility. I use both a Mac at home and the Windows system at work. And, you know, in part because Microsoft makes the main software, the Office software, for both of them, it's very easy to go from one to the other now. You know, there are a number of programs, you know, games in particular. My son's very unhappy that the Macintoshes don't have as wide a selection. But for the things you want to do and do most on the computer--Web browsing, word processing, etc.--you can pretty much do what you want on the Mac. CONAN: One last question on this, and it's another e-mail--this, from Larry. `Being a computer scientist and a longtime PC geek, I'm always baffled by the antagonism that Mac folks have over PCs. What causes this? I rarely, if ever, hear PC folks slamming Macs, yet I constantly hear Mac folks slamming PCs. Is this sour grapes over the loss of the battle over the PC Windows vs. Mac war?' Steven Levy? Mr. LEVY: Well, yeah, there might be a bit of that, but you know, I think, you know, you really have to consider the nature of the Mac audience. They are generally fanatical about their computer and they're more likely to be thinking of it, you know, as a relationship than with people who, you know, use the tool called the PC. CONAN: Lance Ulanoff, what do you think? Mr. ULANOFF: Yeah, I completely agree. Mac users have an emotional attachment to their hardware that PC users do not, but they also respond oftentimes out of fear because if they don't yell or shout down the critics of their platform, there's a real fear that it will go away, that they will eventually be overtaken and their beloved Macintosh and the beloved hardware that comes out of that company will not continue to grow. CONAN: It's maybe not so much the beloved Macintosh and beloved Macintosh hardware as the evil empire that's on the other side. Mr. ULANOFF: Well, there's certainly a feeling that they're not only evil on the other side but somewhat stupid in that they don't make rock-solid, impenetrable hardware that all just plugs together and works, but they're serving a lot more people. They're serving a much wider audience that expects so many varied kinds of hardware and software to work together that no single company can control that. So the expectations are impossible to meet, so they're not as stupid as they think or as evil as they think, but they're not as good as they would like to believe, either. And you know, the Mac users do have an excellent system. They do have an excellent platform. They have excellent hardware. But it's a niche market. CONAN: Thanks very much. Mr. ULANOFF: No problem. CONAN: Lance Ulanoff is executive editor and columnist for PCMag.com, and he spoke to us from his office in New York City. And we'll continue with Steven Levy and get another caller in. And let's go with Ryan, and Ryan's with us from Salt Lake City. RYAN (Caller): Hi. Thanks for taking my call. CONAN: Sure. RYAN: I have kind of a silly question. I'm a programmer myself; I work mostly on the PC platform, and I don't know anybody in the industry as far as what I do that uses the Mac as a platform, yet often--and I think exclusively in the movies and in television--whenever you see the real techies working on a computer, they're always on a Mac. And I wonder why that is. Is that just Apple did a better job getting in with the movie studios or, does anybody have any answer for that question? CONAN: Or paid a lot of money for product placement, Steven Levy. RYAN: Maybe so. Mr. LEVY: Right. Well, actually, you know, it's two things. First of all, Apple has for a long time had, you know, people whose job it is to make sure that you see a lot of Macintoshes in those TV shows, and, you know, there is a conscious attempt to seed, you know, producers in Hollywood studios with those. It's my impression that generally that they don't pay for the product placement, but the people are happy to have, you know, Macintoshes. They like Apple as a company, and they connect with the creativity, so, you know, it's a relationship that both sides are pretty happy with. CONAN: If you're into digital editing of movies and television, you do that on a Mac, though, don't you? Mr. LEVY: That's a very big market for the Mac. And... RYAN: Yeah, music editing as well. I'm a musician as well, and music editing is always better on a Macintosh, and I just--I was just curious about that, if it had anything to do with refresh rates, looked better on film or anything like that, but maybe not. Mr. LEVY: Well, traditionally, you know, that's been a big Mac market and, you know, they design the computers to make sure they satisfy those needs, and sometimes Apple itself has stepped into the breach and produced the software itself to help do that. CONAN: Thanks, Ryan. RYAN: Thanks. CONAN: You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. And now let's go with James, and he's with us from San Francisco. JAMES (Caller): Hey, how are you today? CONAN: OK. JAMES: Great. I wanted to say that the Macintosh changed my life. CONAN: In what way? JAMES: We produce a television cooking show; it's a weekly show called "The Hippy Gourmet"--that's H-I-P-P-Y--and we've been doing it now for almost three years. We reach over two and a half million homes a week in the San Francisco Bay area, and it's produced exclusively on the Apple Mac platform. CONAN: So you transfer all of the video imagery to your computer and edit it there? JAMES: That's correct. We use Final Cut Pro, which is also produced by Apple, and we use DVD Studio Pro to create DVD products, which we then put up on our Web page, and our show is growing in popularity, and we could not have produced a single episode without the Apple Mac and without Final Cut Pro. CONAN: So "Hippy Gourmet"? JAMES: That's correct. CONAN: What was the first item you cooked on the program? JAMES: Well, we started with actually a fruit crepe, and then Jerusalem artichokes from our back yard, the Victorian in Haight-Asbury. CONAN: James, thanks very much, and good luck with the program as it continues. JAMES: Thanks so much. CONAN: Steven Levy, obviously, you know, we've not had time to go through all the trials and travails of Macintosh and Apple, the company that spawned it. But there have been good times, there have been bad times lately with the iPod. As you mentioned earlier, Macintosh seems to be--rather, Apple seems to be coming on some better times. Is its position in the marketplace stable at this point? Mr. LEVY: I think it is. You know, a few years ago in the mid-'90s, people were literally writing Apple's obituary, and then Steve Jobs, the, you know, prodigal son who had been booted from the company himself in 1985, came back in '97 and, you know, decided to focus on innovation and did a great job at doing that. It still only has about a 5 percent market share, but they have a much better cash position and financially they're more stable, and you know, there's high hopes for the future, though, you know, I don't think the market share is ever going to get to compete with the other guys. But certainly, they've managed to establish themselves for years to come. CONAN: Now a criticism of Mac, and really Apple as a whole, is that sometimes they work too far in the future. Laptops and PDAs--innovative, turned out to be some of Apple's biggest failures. Mr. LEVY: That's right. They came out with the first PDA, the Newton, which some people still swear by. But you know, I think Steve Jobs has done a fairly good job, not an infallible one, at, you know, trying not to go too far ahead, but be far enough ahead that sometimes you could dazzle people. The iPod's a good example. He had one computer that was shaped like a cube, which was really gorgeous, but was maybe a little ahead of its time. But currently he seems to be hitting the right notes on a lot of, you know, Apple's new computers. CONAN: I wanted to end with a couple of e-mails we got--this one from Tim Copeland(ph) in St. Paul, Minnesota. `I still have every computer I ever purchased: a Commodore, several PCs, and the newest, the Mac G4. I sincerely hope that the masses never really discover the superiority of the Mac because the absolutely best thing about it is its lack of vulnerability to common viruses. Dear audiences,' he suggests, `PCs are great. Wink.' And we mentioned--we opened the program by mentioning Super Bowl XVIII. Well, here from Tony in Kensington, `I'm a lifelong Mac user and an evangelist for most forms of Mac technology, but being a Mac fan is a little like being a Raiders fan. You love 'em, you want 'em to do well, but they keep making the same silly mistakes that just drive you crazy.' And I guess, Steven Levy, we can end it there. Mr. LEVY: Well, I'm an Eagles fan so I'm not having a very good week. CONAN: You and the Raiders. They didn't have a very good year, so it depends on which hurts the most, I suspect. But thanks very much for being with us today. Mr. LEVY: My pleasure. Thanks, Neal. CONAN: Steven Levy is a senior editor at Newsweek magazine, the author of "Insanely Great: The Life and Times of Macintosh, the Computer that Changed Everything." And he spoke with us from our bureau in New York. To see the Mac's history in pictures, just head on over to the TALK OF THE NATION page at npr.org. Now you can always tell a Mac was happy because it smiled at you when you turned it on, but what does it mean when a politician smiles at you? Hold on to your wallet, generally. After the break, the history of the smile. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. Copyright ©1990-2003 National Public Radio®. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to National Public Radio. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission. For further information, please contact NPR's Permissions Coordinator at (202) 513-2000.